I agree that all the various gnutella developers should have an equal input into things like the GDF, otherwise the network will stray from its roots as an open P2P network. I'm not that bothered if people go off and make closed-source clients, stick adds and spyware in them, and do anything else to them that I wouldn't want in a client because I can always just use a client without all those things that is open source. To argue otherwise is to argue against the principles of the Free Software movement IMHO. If some clients are actively ruining the Gnutella network for other clients, then those other clients' developers should first try to resolve the difference with those bad clients, and then if that's not sucessful find a way of working around them. If the "bad" clients are simply making the network better for themselves, but not making the network for everyone else any better, then leave them to it. The network is open to all, not just those with whom most developers agree.

And on the topic of freeloaders, I think it should be allowed on the network for several reasons. First of all, those who don't get much time on the net, and have a slow connection (myself sometimes included) simply cannot use the network if half the bandwidth is lost to uploads. Sometimes I need to freeload to be able to get a file in time. At other times (when possible) I'll leave my client sitting there completely open to uploads. Others with even slower connections (<56k) probably always freeload because to do otherwise would be to make the network useless from them.

Now obviously there are probably a lot of people with fast connctions who are freeloading, and that's bad, but it must be allowed because otherwise the network isn't about freedom, which IMHO is paramount. We should encourage people to share through text in clients, the design of clients, through these forums and any other areas in which we come into contact with other users.

Moak your ideals for gnutella are just your ideals.. You dont own the network as much as the next guy. Posts like this, blaming all the popular programs, and other tyrates dont help no matter how much you claim to have done for guntella. The fact that you do nothing to improve the network but instead just bashings against a few programs where you want to split the network apart and encrouage developers to not work with eachother in improving gnutella which is really in everyone's best interest.

Your ideals is really just the same vague description over and over which you use in threads like this where you bash programs and the current network. Not once have you actually proved your ideals.

So instead of the bashing against programs and the network as it is today please post how wonderful your ideal will be and what it would mean for the guntella and most importantly why do you think it will work? Whats the incentive for developers? and what direction does it take gnutella? Please provide some actualy data and examples to support your ideals.

Also without bashing other programs, developers or the gdf explain how gnutella has gotten worst from a year ago? Please explain that to me because IMHO gnutella has gotten alot better..

Do i think you will actually finally post what your "ideals" will mean for gnutella no. I expect you and your groupies to post some insults, call me a troll and etc.. Which make me wonder if your "great" ideals really exist at all.

There isn't any, that's the point. Your favorite BearShare author caused all this so you may want to think about how your support for that client has taken Gnutella to new lows.

someone said: "Gnutella to new lows."

On the contrary, gnutella (technically) has never been better.

The people that are most vocal about their anti-gnutella views just don't like the spyware and politics of the big commercial client developers.

"Get over it, this is just how things work". If you guys don't like the commercial aspects of gnutella, then help develop that openp2p protocol where you can block/control what clients use it.

Ok "unregistered" or moak. You still havent answered my post which i asked how is gnutella at a "new low" as you put it. Considering that you havent and that your once again posting more baseless accusations,and finger pointing.

So lets try this again. Post whats so bad with gnutella and feel free to use some examples and data to support your claims. Otherwise to me it seems that your just throwing up the accusations because you really cant explain how gnutella is so bad..

Oh come now Sephiroth, Moak et al are doing exactly what you suggest, venting their furstrations and trying to best articulate their beliefs about problems in the Gnutella network. Of course if those problems are real, then Gnutella must have got worse since Bearshare and LW grew into the huge clients they are toda, so the "new lows" statement is quite justified.

They already have, and you have already replied with your opinion of their views, so let's leave it at that.

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9888
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9434
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=5534
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=5442
http://opensourcep2p.sourceforge.net/

I didnt ask for a list of links to be given the run around.
I think its really a very simple request that isnt inappropiate to ask someone who is going at the lengths that moak is by posting threads like this and etc.

What is their purpose and what exact their "great" vision of gnutella is.. I think that if a persin really had one and trule believed in it that they would remember and would be able to explaining it to people should be a very easy thing to do. As well as going into detail how the network has gotten worst.

Why do you wanna have everything explained? why don't you read existing sources? We explained it again and again, and we are tired of that.

But ok, i'll try to explain it -again- to you, if you read it without saying "wrong" because it's cool to say "wrong"; just sit back and relax........

There are - in my opinion - 3 or 4 problems with gnutella:

- as in many other threads mentioned, the "commercial ones":
(O) Building Spyware into clients isn't ok, there's the feature to don't install it, but: the normal user doesn't even know what spyware is!!
I have nothing against making money with a client, i hate that they make money with information of uninformed users, would you like to have your credit card number publicied without knowing that??

(O) The influence in the GDF, especially BS alias Vinnie: If you haven't realized it yet, Vinnie rules the GDF, everything that he says has to be done. If you keep to don't implement it, you're concidered as unhealthy for the net, without a technical reason (see Xolox, and later the rest of the 0.4 clients)

(O) Endless debates about small topics are slowing down developing

(O) The commercials only do what's best for THEM, not for the network, do you really think clustering clients as BS does is OK? The time that they prefer own clients has already come, a net split between them and the rest is needed!

(O) Changes are implemented before thinking about them, for example Ultrapeers

and much more...

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

Please, Seph, don't say "no" before thinking about these points.. otherwise the effect will be that you not encouraging new ideas,but destroying all.. Maybe this is also my last post, i've much to do for my last big tests in school.

as morgwen has in his signature:
patience is a virtue
thx morg*g*

I asked moak to explain his post and his great ideal for gnutella which he spoke of. Which im still waiting...

Anyways your post is exactly what im talking about. You just posted bashed programs and the network today.. and on topics that dont concern you. Like "spyware" worry about your own box. Many people know about spyware but just dont care.

Now about your points..

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

What about programs like xolox and others that dont or wont partcipate?? And how do you stop programs from implementing "bad" features on a open network? Also there is allready a community built but a small group of people here like yourself, moak and others seem content in splitting it up and tearing it apart.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

100% compatible is impossible. Your assuming that developers will agree with each other 100% of the time and that every developer will implement every proposal 100% of the time even though that may not be the direction they want to take their program. Over time if a program doesnt support major advances then they could get left behind because legacy versions cant be supported forever.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

Good idea but how will the developer net get enough users on it to sustain the net and be large enough to accurately portray the current network.. Its not that easy. There are projects like gnutella simulators which can accomplish this.

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

Whats the GDC? If you mean the GDF then it think your wrong. Look at the second paragraph of the next question.

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

There is no reason to do that since the GDF is an open and free place for everyone started by gnutellahosts.com and a idea like that really goes against what the GDF is suppose to be. It allready is a neutral place if some programs dont partcipate then thats their decision they can live with it.

Polling to see what is done i dont think should be used on a regular basis because its slow, and because its an open network people wont change their mind because the poll says otherwise. Being an open network is really gnutella's greatest strength and greatest weakness..

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