??? I deny the lies of the past because I didn't lie about anything. It's like me accusing you of lying about something right now. What would you do??

Abused Gnutella clients? I still just don't get it. Stop playing the victim. It's an open protocol with open proposols that get approved by a standards body and implemented by those involved. If we were abusing other Gnutella clients, don't you think they'd mention it? We talk with them every day, and all we discuss on this issue is how to make UltraPeers work better ant the details of how they can implement them. Abuse? Not a peep. If there were abuse, we would have worked it out in the process of creating the UltraPeer protocols in the first place, because no one would have tolerated it.

Honestly, I just think you like the idea of having a little rebel network, and I think that's fine. Just don't go trying to bring down people who really don't deserve it. Just create an alternative network and leave whatever bitterness behind. Making interesting technology is the fun part, and I really thiink that's somehow gotten lost in all of this. I would honestly be really excited and impressed if you made a network that had really cool, innovative ideas in it that have not been implemented before because, again, that's the fun part.

Take care.

I didn't explain why clustering helps?

Again, it makes such a network scale about 5 to 20 times more because you're hitting all UltraPeers at every hop along a search path. That's 5 to 20 times more files you can find. That's a huge difference. Clustering makes a better network, which is what we're all trying to do. Maybe you should implement the open UltraPeer protocol in your own client?

Maybe you should recall the spyware past into your memory... spreading serious scumware like Cydoor, Aureate, Ezula, and Gator and denying or not informing users.

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=5022

Good luck with clustering away from your user base...

No you didn't.

If one of your superpeer can shield up to 80 or more so called leaves... why do you not allow them to be non-Limewire clients, instead cluster non-Limewire clients away. Where is the network improvement?

Damn it Adam, go read the thread and this one too
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...?threadid=9434

We are using Gnucleus.
You are sucking CPU cycles and using our network resources to make a buck.
Again, we are not running LimeWire but yet you still use us to make a buck, get it?

You come to Gnutella hoping to make it rich.

Gnutella is not the place to make a buck. If we let this continue every company that has a programmer will come over here and SPAM us hoping to make a buck.
We don't want to provide corporations with a FREE backbone and network support for their profit motives!
What don't you understand about this? Is it sinking in yet? Are you just playing dumb because your company revolves around sucking off Gnutella?

UltraPeers is not your "gift" to Gnutella. It just happens to fit your model of how you want to cluster nodes together for your XML crap. The idea came from other people, not LimeWire.
At meetings at LimeWire corporate headquarters you plan and scheme ways to make LimeWire do things other client's can't to give you a $$$ edge over others.
You know open source clients won't do XML because it takes a team of programmers to get it to work, and another team of support people to keep it working.
So you do XML even though everyone else says it sucks. You jumped on it because it gives YOU a advantage. Why? GREED!
This is greed, this is profit motive and doesn't belong on Gnutella.
Now your client needs to cluster or you will look stupid for offering XML queries. And you flood the network with your long, lame query packets, using our network resources to pass them (again, we are not running LimeWire) so you look good and keep your profit "advantage".
You need your own private LimeWire network, so does BearShare, you need to support it with your own backbone that you pay for out of your pocket, not ours!
We don't need you, but you need us, otherwise you would have your own little network already.
Kazza got taken off of downloads.com because they were going to suck resources off of other people's computers, you should be banned from Gnutella for the same reasons.
Greed sucks! Your motivation to keep working there and keep on sucking off Gnutella sucks!
Corporations on Gnutella suck!
Greed steers you in ways you wouldn't normally go, and always towards profit at any cost.
Kazaa is a good example, and BearShare too. Just because your company isn't as bad as them now doesn't mean if we let this continue you won't do it later.
Gnucleus has Superpeers now, for free. We don't want yours if the price is supporting more greed.
Again, this is not just a "project" it's reality, people are blocking LimeWire, BearShare and Morpheus with the modified Gnucleus and other open source clients on Gnutella Net.
See http://opensourcep2p.sourceforge.net/
People have the power, and the software to do it.
That's another feature you would never add, because it may hurt your profit motives!
You are also the last weak point in the network for RIAA style attacks, they take you down and your users have to scramble to find a new client.
They can force you through your profit motives to add things like copyright filtering and who knows what else.

Block'em all!

LimeWire passes queries through Gnucleus (and other clients), and others can pass queries through LimeWire hosts. Noone is using the other part. Its just the Gnutella works.

LW users can download files from other users, but it works just the same in the opposite direction.

LW hosts clustering does not change your horizon, it just makes to percentage of LW hosts in your horizon smaller. Is that a problem?

All the while using OUR resources to improve YOUR users experience so you can serve up more ads and put $$$ in your pocket.

"We spent a lot of $$ to allow anyone experimenting with a Gnutella servant to easily connect to the network"

Another "Gift to Gnutella"? Anyone with a static IP or cable modem could do this for almost nothing. It takes less than 1K to send a few IPs and disconnect. Your web page takes way more, better take it down too.
You only did this out of greed, during your period of inve$tment proposals so you look good. Now that that is over, you take it down. You don't even support your own network, won't spend the $30 a month for a cable modem. Greed sucks!
The one service you could provide to Gnutella, you took away. Greed sucks!
You do point out how network resources do cost you money, and how you are concerned about that, but when it's FREE network resources off of the backs of us file swappers, you don't seem to care about that.
LimeWire clustering is not the big point here, the way BearShare clusters and passes spy packets may be of more concern, but it's the fact that corporations see Gnutella as a profit center and want to spam us to death and use our resources to spam others.
Corporations will not be happy till my computer sits there all day showing ads and figure out a way to make me sit here and watch them all day without providing any services to me. And at no cost to them. Ultimate greed.
The XML stuff was argued on the_gdf and you went ahead anyway because you are the only ones who can support it (and are still the only ones who do in over 6 months now). You knew it would only give you a advantage because everyone said so on the_gdf and you ignored them over $$$.

I noticed you are avoiding the issue of sucking off our CPU cycles, no excuses? It is the central point in your business plan to use us to support your business so I can see why you don't want to comment.

KathW, this is a debate and it may get a little rough, hang in there!

Okay, before this is getting more a GDF praise singing... *yawn* I'll say good luck with your valuable partner Bearshare. At least you lost me and I'll spend my time in more interesting projects, I described my point and dissapointment about current Gnutella development.

So long, Moak

Don't go away mad.. just go away!!

and take the rest of that stupid open p2p spam with you.

I don't come to web fori often and I hate them, so I won't bother you too much.

With all due respect, I've read this whole thread and it is completely stupid: people are throwing arguments over and over and don't listen to each other. Repeating one's arguments, rephrasing etc... is of no use when the other party is not listening.

Now that I got your attention, let me state that I for one do not care the least whether there are for-profit software on Gnutella or not as long as the files those node share are truly shared to anyone that can find them and request them.

I think afisk's point on the Ultrapeer clustering makes sense. They're not really clustering LW clients together, they're clustering Ultrapeers because this is the only way to maximize the horizon with today's Gnutella protocol and limitations. This is so easy to prove that I'll let that as an exercise to Moak.

As far as the Open P2P network goes, I'm not interested for now. If it becomes a major network, I'll make sure my client can become a bridge between OP2P and Gnet so that people find each-other's file and that we don't have two networks stupidely sharing files in their own selfish way. Until then, I wish them good luck, but I think it will die in a few months.

Finally, I think LW and BS deserve some amount of recognition for what they brought to Gnutella. Sure, they made mistakes, but so did I, and so will everyone out there.

Leaving the GDF was the best thing I ever did, because I think what matters is what goes on the network. Instead of discussing forever, I've decided to make my own features or adapt the existing features as I implement them (to fix any broken part and glue back both pieces). However, I communicate to the GDF in a write-only manner so that everyone knows what I'm doing and can cooperate if they wish.

I encourage everyone to do the same, and then natural selection will elect the best features. There will be no pain, and no bad experiences. Even if your own features do not catch up, you'll have learned by doing them and won't repeat the same mistakes.

So long.

Raphael